Talk:Convection oven

Industrial applications

From the article: They are mostly used in industrial and commercial applications. What?! While it is true that (like many other major kitchen appliances) the convection oven was first developed for and adopted in professional kitchens, it is quite common today and has been so for at least ten years (where I live) in domestic kitchens, too.

Current oven models for the domestic market typically even have several modes and can function either as a conventional oven or as a convection oven.

This article needs help.

• Who invented/patented the first convection oven? When was that?
• When did the first models for the domestic market appear?
• Needs to mention that food dries out quicker than in a normal oven.
• Are all convection ovens electrical? Are there convection ovens powered by gas? If not, why not? (Maybe because a gas oven works much like a convection oven anyway?)
• What technologies exist? All those I've used had a ventilator at the back, but are there other (existing) possibilities?
• how do convection ovens work in heat goes up or down?

Lupo 15:02, 1 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Wow. This comment is almost two years old and the article still has the same short-comings. Rl 08:16, 24 May 2006 (UTC)

It's absolutely crazy. If you want to know real bad science, check out the statement "there will be about a 25 to 30% reduction in cooking temperature" -- evidently written by people who don't know where the absolute zero of temperature is. For example, if I have a 175ºC (= 350ºF) recipe, what they mean is that you should take some number between .7 and .75, multiply by 175, and you get roughly 130ºC (~= 260ºF). But that's not a 25% reduction in the temperature. In fact, it's only roughly a 10% reduction in the absolute temperature. A 30% reduction in the absolute temperature, measured from the correct absolute zero, would be three times lower -- or 40ºC (~= 100ºF, or body temperature). If they were actually right, you could cook things by blowing on them! It's madness... -- 24.92.248.183 06:45, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

Clearly this article needs sources and citations, for instance "A residential double oven will often include the convection capability in only one of the two ovens." what relevance to the article is this statement, and it does appear to be at best original research. Zharmad (talk) 03:32, 24 November 2007 (UTC)

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ALL Ovens are CONVECTION Ovens

In the sense of the article, there are two kinds of convection ovens and BOTH operate via the principle of convection, namely, the transfer of heat from a source to a target using the movement of a fluid common to both -- in this case, air. These two kinds are --

1. Natural-Convection Process -

The Natural Convection process occurs when heated air expands, and cooled air contracts, thereby leading to the natural circulation of air within the oven from the source to the target, which then absorbs some of the heat in the air passing by it.

2. Forced-Convection Process -

The Forced Convection process does not rely on the above natural movement of air -- but instead it relys on the movement of air within the oven induced by a fan within the oven -- This leads to a more efficient and uniform absorption of heat by the target owing to much higher air velocity AND much higher air turbulence.

The appliance marketeers, as one should expect, have obscured the issue from the consumer public and rather hopelessly mucked up the terminology. Allenwoll 02:15, 17 March 2007 (UTC)

--

2 is wrong. Mixed air is NO LONGER CONVECTION. There is no seperation of cool and hot air, thus there is no extra buoyancy for the hot air in the system as a whole, so hot air no longer rises and circulates around as cold air rushes into replace it.

So ONLY regular ovens are ACTUAL convection ovens, 'Convection' ovens are actually 'NON-convection'.

How people put up with these ridiculous definitions that mean the EXACT OPPOSITE of the words is totally beyond me. -- Mathx (talk) 01:14, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

--

Well, we cannot help what terms have come into the common usage but it's entirely reasonable to explain how the name is a misnomer. Yes, to the purist there is no such thing as "forced convection" at all but that's not a term that is in use anyway. The salient point is that using the term convection is a misnomer and I added a line about that back in December 2007. In December 2008 someone who didn't bother to edit with a name took it out saying it was unnecessary fussiness. Anyway, I put something back, trying to incorporate it into the way the opening graph reads now. Perhaps it could be worded better. I do say that perhaps the common name of "convection oven" could be construed as a shortening of "forced convection oven" -- I feel less annoyed when I hear the former term if I think it's short for the latter -- even though I admit, as has been pointed out, the word convection doesn't even apply. But anyway, while it's not Wiki's job to police the language I think an article about convection ovens (as the term is commonly used) that does NOT point out this major misnomer is an inadequate article on the topic. Just my two cents. Filmteknik (talk) 03:30, 4 July 2009 (UTC)

terminology level

would talking about using fans to increase the thermal coupling between the hot air and the food be too much engineering terminology? The current vocabulary of 'stripping away the thin layer of insulating air' true but explained in much poorer detail than in the article on wind chill, which is basically the same effect - there is more thermal coupling (equivalently, less 'insulation') due to the moving air at the ambient temperature.

The lower cooking temperature could then be explained as getting the same rate of energy gain of the food; with a better thermal coupling between the air and the food, less temperature difference is required for the same transfer of heat to the food

ThrustVectoring (talk) 05:12, 21 January 2009 (UTC)

The Term "Convection" Being Wrong...

...as applied to this sort of oven is worth a brief mention. Please stop removing it Filmteknik (talk) 15:15, 16 September 2009 (UTC)

If a "convection oven" is a misnomer because convection occurs in both a "regular oven" and a "convection oven", then:

• "Color paper" is a misnomer because white is also a color.
• The "White House" is a misnomer, because there are other houses that are white.
• "Vanilla ice cream" is a misnomer because there are plenty of other ice cream flavors that contain vanilla.
• "Ground water" is a misnomer because "surface waters" like lakes and ponds are also waters that are on the ground.
• "Synthetic fiber" is a misnomer because even natural fibers must undergo a process of synthesis (albeit not on the molecular level).
• "Automobile" is a misnomer because there are many other things other than cars, trucks, etc that can "move by themselves".
• "Taxi Driver" is a misnomer because there are plenty of other movies with taxi drivers in them.
• "Toaster" is a misnomer, because if you put a piece of bread near a sunny window, the same toasting process will occur (though to a lesser degree).

The issue of "forced" vs "natural" conduction is also silly. A "forced convection oven", really? If you want that degree of specificity, then:

• "Microwave Ovens" should be "2.45 GHz Wave Ovens", since not all microwave frequencies will work for a microwave oven.
• A "1 gigabyte hard drive" should be a "1,073,741,824 byte hard drive"
• We should say "dark red, white, navy blue" when describing the colors of the American flag (in contrast, the French would say "reflex blue, safe, red 032" for their flag)
• "Plastic bags" should be "polyethylene bags"

I don't doubt there are technical applications where the term "forced convection oven" is useful, but are you really worked up about the fact that language is often not exact? As you are (I assume) years-long, if not decades-long, users of English, I would have thought you would be used to a degree of ambiguity and inconsistency in language.

This doesn't need explanation in the article any more than the "vanilla ice cream" article needs an explanation.--Rsl12 (talk) 16:34, 17 September 2009 (UTC)

Wow that is bizarre and ridiculous. Your response is as though I am asking for a name that is more precisely detailed. On the contrary, I've not asked for anything of the sort. I'm not for a moment suggesting that people change what they call it. You've misunderstood my point completely. I'm simply saying that when the popular term is completely the opposite of the technical reality it is completely appropriate for an encyclopedia entry to at least mention this. A sentence or two in that regard makes sense. To put it in terms of some of your examples if the presidential home was actually cream colored for some reason but still called "White House" I would expect the entry for the latter to mention it. If microwave ovens used a frequency entirely outside the microwave range I'd like that mentioned. That's not a request for more detail on but only asking that when something is totally the opposite it bears mentioning.

Your examples make little sense as analogies because they are all about more precision and not about complete contradictions. Maybe you don't realize that what an electric fan creates is not a TYPE of convection (the way a polyethylene bag is a TYPE of plastic bag) but NOT CONVECTION AT ALL! Convection means natural circulation, not forced. Surely that inherent contradiction is worthy of mention!

Please realize that my mention of "forced convection oven" (which itself is inherently contradictory) was NOT a suggestion for what they should be called, but rather just a way to balance the incorrect popular term with the reality in the sense that those who are sticklers for correct terminology (and I am NOT) can simply pretend that when the public says "convection oven" instead of the purists' heads exploding they can take comfort in thinking that the public just means and has shortened "forced convection oven." I am certainly NOT saying anyone adopt that term; it was simply a way to appease the sticklers. I apologize if I wasn't more clear with that.

I hope I have been able to clarify my point which is simply that when a popular term is completely the opposite of the reality an encyclopedia that does not at least take a moment to mention that fact is rather derelict in its duty. Filmteknik (talk) 15:55, 27 September 2009 (UTC)

Am I mistaken? I don't know anyone else who says that convection means only "natural" convection, other than possibly meteorologists who don't have to worry about giant blowers affecting the weather. From the preface of an introductory text on heat transfer:

A container of hot coffee moved by hand is a convective energy flow.... (p. 1)

All heat transfer textbooks I'm aware of define convection through something similar or identical to the convection-diffusion equation, which doesn't distinguish between "forced" fluid movement and "naturally" occurring fluid movement. Looking at dictionary definitions, I find definitions like: the transfer of heat through a fluid (liquid or gas) caused by molecular motion. Even dear old wikipedia counts "forced convection" as a type of convection in the convection article. Correct me if I'm wrong. --Rsl12 (talk) 23:34, 29 September 2009 (UTC)

Hmmm...Looking on both dictionary.com and merriam-webster.com, both of which I think are pretty good representatives of the general language, the relevant definitions both involve only the heat inspired motion. As for the Wiki article, it doesn't weaken my point; it actually strengthens it.

It offers additional examples of several types of non-heat driven motion as being covered by the word convection beyond the popular usage. But even it doesn't suggest it covers fan-forced movement EXCEPT when the word is modified by "forced." So to be strictly accurate the paragraph in dispute should probably be modifed to state that convection "usually" refers to heat-inspired air movement. But based on the Wiki article fan or pump induced fluid movement doesn't seem to be covered EXCEPT when the word is modified by forced. Note how the Wiki article forks that off into a completely different article. This aspect of the Wiki article and the two popular dictionary definitions suggest to me that the paragraph is appropriate and should remain.Filmteknik (talk) 04:01, 2 October 2009 (UTC)

Sorry to come back to this after all this time... I think general language dictionaries are probably right to focus only on the "natural convection" definition of convection, because that's the definition used most by the general public. But that doesn't mean the other, more general definition doesn't exist, or that the term "convection oven" is a misnomer! If you looked into any kind of science or technical (though not meteorological) dictionary, I wager you'd always find the definition I'm talking about, something like "the transfer of heat via movement of liquid/gas." Harold McGee's book "On Food and Cooking" has a good passage describing the fact that convection ovens rely more on convection for the heat transfer than do normal ovens. I'll look it up some time this week.--Rsl12 (talk) 16:49, 21 April 2010 (UTC)

From Harold McGee's book:

In the technique called baking, we surround the food with a hot enclusure, the oven, and rely on a combination of radiation from the walls and, to a lesser extent, air convection to heat the food.... A potato can be boiled in less time than it takes to be baked at double the temperature. This is so because neither radiation at 500 degrees (despite a surface area of radiating walls that is quite large compared to coals or broiler elements) nor air convection at such high temperatures--the hotter a gas is, the thinner it is--and in an enclosed space, is very efficient. The air currents are less violent than bubbling water, and because air at room temperature is about one-thousandth as dense as water, the collisions between medium and food are much less frequent in the oven (this is also why we can reach into a hot oven without immediately burning our hand). Convection ovens increase the rate of heat transfer by using fans to force air movement, and baking times are accordingly much reduced.

and for good measure, some definitions from online science dictionaries:

http://www.sciencedictionary.org/weather-term-details/Convection-Cnvtn
http://www.physicsphenomena.com/Physicsdictionary.htm#letC
http://dictionary.babylon.com/convection/ (scroll down for technical definitions)
http://books.google.com/books?id=f1lnQwrvOSEC&printsec=frontcover&dq=engineering+dictionary&cd=5#v=onepage&q=convection&f=false
http://books.google.com/books?id=td87j9q6cu0C&lpg=PP1&dq=engineering%20dictionary&pg=PA61#v=onepage&q=convection&f=false

I should note, in my search, I did find two dictionaries that included only "natural convection" in the definition:

http://books.google.com/books?id=yKUagx8PB_EC&dq=physics+dictionary&printsec=frontcover&source=in&hl=en&ei=WufPS-yXEpXUNfmFsfgM&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=11&ved=0CCsQ6AEwCg#v=onepage&q=convection&f=false
http://books.google.com/books?id=_jPzmoWA1CcC&printsec=frontcover&dq=physics+dictionary&hl=en&ei=KenPS-vYDJDO8wTC7PmvCw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=3&ved=0CEcQ6AEwAg#v=onepage&q=convection&f=false

Hopefully this doesn't detract from my arguments: convection can be defined simply as "transfer of heat via movement of gas or liquid", and as such, a "convection oven" isn't a misnomer. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Rsl12 (talk • contribs) 06:22, 22 April 2010 (UTC)

I propose rewriting the paragraph in question this way:

Although the word "convection" is usually used to describe the natural circulation of gas or liquid caused by temperature differences, the "convection" in convection oven refers to a more general definition: the transfer of heat via movement of gas or liquid. While both regular ovens and convection ovens will transfer heat to food via convection, convection ovens impart more convective heat by using fans to force air movement (cite McGee).

--Rsl12 (talk) 07:06, 22 April 2010 (UTC)

PS. Sorry for my previous sarcasm. It was unwarranted.--Rsl12 (talk) 07:27, 22 April 2010 (UTC) you can a cook a lot of great stuff with a convection oven.and the good thing is you can them in one time in a sec!!!XD BUT ONE TODAY!!!!<3 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.220.182.12 (talk) 18:45, 7 March 2011 (UTC)

Fixes: When I looked at this article, I was struck immediately by the fact that the Wikipedia, which should be a source of authoritative information, fails to point out that the common use of the word "convection" in this context is actually a misnomer. So I went ahead and fixed the article to make it clear why this is so and to explain things in a manner less likely to confuse someone who actually understands what convection is. It was only after doing my edits that I checked the talk to discover that others have pointed out the misnomer and the fact that it should be noted in the article. There has been some dissent on that point; but I think the article is improved by my edits, so I am leaving them in. For impingement ovens, I removed the statement, "Air flow rates can range between 1 and 5 m³/s.", because that statement does not mean much without also specifying the area over which that flow is distributed. A statement about the velocity (m/s) of the impinging air might be more relevant, but would still benefit from mention of the affected area. (There are details here I would like to understand better, as the impinging air must also leave the area onto which it impinges and that exhaust flow is going to interfere with further impingement unless properly managed.) I also rearranged the order of presentation of some facts to result in a more logical flow. DrHow (talk) 01:45, 13 February 2013 (UTC)

The way you've edited it, you've attributed something to Harold McGee that is completely different than what he wrote. See above, where I quoted the relevant portion of his book. --RSLxii 19:26, 13 February 2013 (UTC)

OK. So I fixed it by moving the reference down to the last sentence of the paragraph, where it is relevant. Sorry - I had not realized that you had quoted McGee, so I did not really know what McGee had written. I had assumed the reference applied to the last clause and not to the "as opposed to" relationship.DrHow (talk) 20:31, 23 February 2013 (UTC)

The cited sentence still does not accurately reflect what McGee wrote, which is:

* Conventional ovens rely primarily on radiation from the oven walls, and, to a lesser extent, convection.

* Convection ovens use fans to increase the amount of heat transferred via convection.

--RSLxii 22:08, 25 February 2013 (UTC)

Wrong image?

That oven in the image doesn't look like a convection oven.
I may be a "conveyor" oven, but with the open sides I seriously doubt is a "convection" one.
The wisegeek site has some more appropriate photos (just to give you an idea of what a convection oven normally looks like). 45.3.27.158 (talk) 22:35, 27 January 2016 (UTC)

So, I've looked up the one pictured, and it seems to be a Middleby PS360, which, as I suspected is a conveyor oven, but not a convection one. Since I couldn't find an appropriate image on Wikimedia Commons, I've removed the picture altogether. 45.3.27.158 (talk) 15:12, 30 January 2016 (UTC)

Photo request

This could use a photo of a normal convection oven, which looks like a conventional home oven with a fan. Beland (talk) 07:23, 13 January 2019 (UTC)

Market share

What portion of homes have convection vs. conventional ovens in various countries? Beland (talk) 07:24, 13 January 2019 (UTC)

Wiki Education assignment: Technology and Culture

This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 21 August 2023 and 15 December 2023. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Wheel112 (article contribs).

— Assignment last updated by Thecanyon (talk) 05:33, 12 December 2023 (UTC)

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